Gina Luker On The App Guy Podcast

In this episode I speak with Gina Luker from Shabby Creek Cottage and Pinterest expect. She gets 1 to 2 million website views per month; most coming from Pinterest. 
Within a year of starting her business, she reached her dream and quit her day job. 
Learn how you can use Gina's experience using Pinterest to build an audience (say for your app or yourself). For example, I’ve now been Pinning quotations from guests and posting them to group boards on Pinterest.  

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Resources: Website  / Twitter / Facebook / Pinterest

Results from my first three weeks of using Pinterest as Gina Luker taught me in the interview and our post chat conversation.

Use Pinterest The Same As The App Guy.png

After a few months....

The App Guy Podcast Using Pinterest To Get 50000 Monthly Viewers

TAGP145 Gina Luker - Transcriptof our conversation on The App Guy Podcast

Paul:     So it's another episode of the App Guy Podcast, I am your host, it's Paul Kemp and this is the show where I try to get some of the most interesting people who can help us in our own journeys. So whether you're working and doing this as a part time becoming an app developer, whether you're actually running your own business or whether you're running a multinational company, I do think there's a lot you can get from this. 
Now, I'm so pleased to have this next guest because, I've actually interviewed this next guest before on my previous show, it's called The Entrepreneur Dad Podcast, it's another podcast I run for fun and I was so blown away by Gina's openness and her business model and the amount of traffic that she's getting from some of the social media sites that she's on. I just had to get her back on and interview her for the App Guy Podcast. I think we're going to learn a huge amount, so this is a wonderful episode, stay tune. 
Let's get straight into it! Gina, I'm so pleased you could join us, Gina Luker of Shabby Creek Cottage, welcome to the App Guy Podcast!
Gina:    Thank you so much for having me! 
Paul:     It's okay and we have, I am going to blame for the connection, I've got some dodgy things going on with my broadband so I hope we can get through. But in the meantime, normally I ask you to talk through your journey, I would suggest anyone listening to this just go to the entrepreneur.podcast.com search for the episode with Gina Luker and you'll be able to listen to our chat there where you go through entire business about Shabby Creek Cottage. 
What I would like to focus this episode on Gina, is to talk about your experience of pulling traffic from Pinterest to your wonderful website called Shabby Creek Cottage, so perhaps we can start there. 
I know that the last time we spoke, you had somewhere in the region of 1 million views per month on your site which was an amazing amount and three quarters of that was coming from Pinterest. How things change since we last spoke?
Gina:     I'm still right around a million, it's about that time of year that blog traffic will go up from September to like February, it's the best time of year and so I can already see an incline, a slight incline in. The closer we get to colder weather, when more people are inside the more traffic I'll get. So like, in December-January, I'd expect to have around 2 million hits a month but in the summer time it falls more around 1 million. So that's kind of where I'm at right now, about 95% of that actually comes from Pinterest. So Pinterest is really good to me. I am all about Pinterest!
Paul:     Well, first of all it is not surprising because that... I have to, honestly have to congratulate you, there's so many of us listening to this who would be so happy with just 1/10, 1/100 of that achievement and you did that and I know that on the past episode we talked through your journey and how you grew from nothing pretty much to where you are now. So it's just a wonderful story. I do, highly encourage people to go back and check out that episode. 
So, Pinterest, let's talk about that, how do you use Pinterest so successfully Gina, perhaps you can give us some guidance.
Gina:     Okay, so about two years ago that's when I started noticing traffic from Pinterest and it wasn't nearly at the level it is now. But one day I decided to start pinning my own content. I'd never really done that before so I decided to try to pin like 5 or 6 things a day and then I saw an increase in traffic. So I went up to 10 things a day and I saw even more increase in traffic. So now I pin 30 to 35 pins a day, just for my content and I also pin other people's content as well. I try to keep it at 80-20 ratio, 80% others to 20% mine so I'm the pinning fool! I pin all the time! And I'll explain in a minute how I do that. But right at a year ago, last August my statistics were, I got 200,000 hits a month and between August and December I went from 200,000 hits a month to a million hits a month, basically in three months and that was from nothing but Pinterest. So and now I always pin myself every day. If I slack off and I don't have my pins going live, I can tell it because my traffic won't be up. 
It is your responsibility to promote your product, whether it's an app or a blog, or a shop, it is your responsibility to promote that. And social media is the best vehicle to do that especially for online businesses, so whether it's Facebook, which is failing miserably these days because nobody sees your posts, or on Twitter which is still kind of hanging in there but it's not so great but Pinterest works really well for me because of the community I have built in the DIY area. 
The biggest kind of information you'll find on Pinterest is about fashion and DIY but then there's a larger subset than you would think, it's not as big as those two but there's a large subset of people who are trying to figure out how to work at home, how to make money, how to grow their businesses. There's tons of content out there and there are tons of people searching for that content so you need to be getting it on Pinterest so that everybody can find it. 
Paul:    Gina, again it's just a real lesson and almost, I'm sure that so many of the audience are going to pause their podcast right now and if they haven't got a Pinterest account, sign up and start promoting themselves as a their own brand or their app that their trying to sell in the app store or whatever it is service or product that their offering. 
Now when you had this, I believe that there's a tipping point and a lot of social media sites have this tipping point where you get so many mentions and you said that there is this condensed three month period where it really took off for you. You currently have on your Pinterest board over 50,000 followers.
Gina:     Yeah
Paul:     So do you remember roughly the tipping point, the number of followers you had at that time when it just really started to accelerate?
Gina:     Actually it's not my followers that are the reason that my traffic grew so much, Pinterest has this ability to have group boards which means more than one person can pin to a board and you can find group boards just by searching for them. You can search for DIY pin boards, recipe group boards, business related group boards, there's a group board for anything under the sun! So you search for those and then you ask whoever owns the board if you can be a contributor. They're going to check you out because they want to have legit people, so make sure you have good content and you're not a spammer. 
But the point is, I personally only have a reach of, I think it's almost 51,000 now. So I have a reach of 51,000 people however, if you look at all the group boards I'm a part of, I have access to 5 million followers on Pinterest. They don't all follow me, but they follow whoever starts the group board and their followers are who see that information. Therefore, I have access to all these other group boards and I think I'm on about 20 of them. If I have access to those 20 people, I have access to get my stuff in front of their followers. Does that make sense?
Paul:     Gina, just that alone is enormous! I honestly never knew that there is shared board on Pinterest. Since our last chat I started dabbling with Pinterest and incorporating into my daily routine the App Pinterest and what I do is I take an image of my daily podcast show and pin that. And to be frank, I wasn't seeing a lot, there's some followers starting to follow me but now I'm going to change my daily habit. I'm going to find shared boards and asked to contribute that coz I do think I've got some really good content to contribute and hopefully all the lessons would agree the apps would thrive [9:33-34] and then grow my Pinterest audience that way and I think that's what I'm going to try myself. Is there any way we can search for he who have got the most popular boards?
Gina:     Honestly, I started out by asking my friends. You probably have friends that do what you do. You have, I don't know the word I'm looking for, you have friends that are app people, right? And they have Pinterest boards too, I would assume, correct?
Paul:     Well see, I have to confess that I'm big on Twitter but with Pinterest I'm not using it as a social board, a social platform, I'm just using it to post my content, so I'm not really active on Pinterest.
Gina:     If you have app developers who are your friends on Twitter but then they have Pinterest as well, then you can go together and create a group board. Like, if you have a group board that, if you have a friend, most of my friends, most of my online friends are in the same realm that I'm in. You need a tribe of people, you need people who do what you do and understand what you know and get you and they don't look at you like you're crazy when you’re doing this whole online business thing. If you don’t have a tribe of people you need to go to a blogging conference or sign up for an online blogging conference or sign the forum somewhere. You need to create connections with people who do what they do because if you help promote each other you will grow faster.
Paul:     Well there you go then to the audience right now, if you are willing to start a board with me then please get in touch and let's start a board together and do several of them!
Gina:     There you go! Luckily sir, my friends have huge followings already. I've been on Pinterest right since it started and I was on Pinterest for 3 years before I started using it for my own project, to my own content. So I had created a following of about maybe 8,000. I had a little following but I have a huge one, it’s really, really grown in the last year that I've been doing this, because I'm putting myself out there in front of all these other people. And you can Google group boards for App Developer, there's somebody somewhere who's written a blog post about it, I guarantee you. There are blog post after blog post after blog post, about wanting money [12:36] so I'm sure there is in yours as well. 
Paul:     Yeah, as you were speaking I'm going through my guest list. I've got 145 guests who have been on the show and many of them have huge online presence, just like yourself, and it's just a case of finding those that would work together. Jointly where you can bring something to the table, like really good content and...
Gina:     Yup! 
Paul:     And then start a joint board!
Gina:     I have a business board, I can invite you to it!
Paul:     Thank you Gina! I'm not sure I like your crowd, hey you'll never know, I mean your crowd of DIYs, maybe they need some super app for that!
Gina:     Because of the itsy [12:24] book like there's these people, these entrepreneurs who followed me, they want to learn the advice that I give, so it doesn't what kind of business information i pin, it usually does pretty well on there because I have a lot of people that that follow me because of the business basically.
Paul:     Yes, yeah I'm just actually going through some boards now and you're right they, you can go in, get invited to these boards and some of these boards have lots of followers and my content would sit really well so it's a case of reaching out to these people and grabbing the group that's seems most relevant. 
Gina:     Okay, so now I'm about to blow your mind, are you ready?
Paul:     I am ready!
Gina:     You can schedule pins so that it pins your content, 24 hours a day and you have to, it's a paid service, the one I use is called, ViralTag.com, you could schedule pins. I schedule about a month ahead so I'll sit down one day and I'll spend a couple of hours and I plan out all my pins for the month and then I don't have to worry again for a month, it's done!
Paul:     Wow, that has blown my mind and I'm more into the condensed workings so having sit down for almost just half a day, a day, plan out the pins to the girls [15:03] going out, and then scheduling this out, I do that for emails, I do that for podcasting and I do that on others, well social media at the moment, I seem to be doing that daily, so I need to kind of figure out some of these services but ViralTag, that sounds like a wonderful gem that you have just given us. 
Gina:     Yeah, ViralTag is an awesome, awesome, awesome stuff! I have been using it since January, I think. When I started doing my pinning myself, just literally, I have reminders set on my phone and I would get up in the morning and I would pin 2 or 3 things, and then in the afternoon I would pin 2 or 3 things and then at night, I would pin a lot because the most traffic time on Pinterest is between 8pm Eastern Time which is like New York City time and midnight. Those are like the prime time hours for Pinterest and if you can pin in that window, if you're only going to pin like 5 things a day, pin them in that window because that has the most visibility time.
Paul:     This is just wonderful, so let's talk about how you pin things then because I've just gone to one of your pins and I can see that first of all there's a big link there, certainly an advert for the ShabbyCreekCottage.com, so I can see that pin is from the Shabby Creek Cottage and then I can see that you're commenting on the pins that you do as well on your own pins.
Gina:     I do, I comment, you want to use good clear descriptions that are SEO friendly, not because [16:45] they're going to give you a lot of SEO's which Pinterest pins do come up in Google pretty quickly, sometimes before your actual content well. But the words that people use to search for things on Google are the same words that people search for on Pinterest. So if somebody is trying to build a DIY coffee table, I'm going to use those words on my blogpost because that's what Google wants and I also know that's what Pinterest will want. So I find, I use the, I think we talked about this in your other podcast, I have a blogpost that teaches you how to use the Google ad word, keyword tool, and I use that same keywords in Pinterest because those are highly searchable.
Paul:     Yeah! Anyone can find that, I use that all the time, it's the planet [17:41] Google ad word, keyword tool, the planet [17:43] how the ad works [17:45] and it's free if you got a Google account and what I do after speaking with you in fact, I decided to make my podcast keyword friendly and assume that what is being searched on Google is also being searched in podcast land on iTunes and most of my titles now for the podcast are ready big searched keywords and that's been very beneficial to me so in terms of pinning then, you put that keyword in the title of the pin itself, is that right so, I'm looking at how to remove pins. Sorry?
Gina:     I put it in the description of the pin. What you're saying where it has like my blog name in bold words right under the photo, that's from, I have what's called rich pins on my website and you can Google that. I actually can't tell you how to do it, my computer genius, she's a god send, she did it for me, so I don't know how to do it but I do know it's called rich pin and you can set it up for any website. 
Paul:     Right, okay, so I have for example then, I think the title of this particular pin, it's one of your latest ones, it says, How to remove paint from furniture without chemicals and that's the title of it, so I'm assuming that's a more descriptive title then than any keyword search tool and there's a description somewhere in this [19:16-17] the keywords that you find in Google. 
Gina:     Yeah, yup, exactly!
Paul:     And your pins are exactly, they've got the same in the pins themselves How to remove paint without chemicals, so it's quite important so that you got the visual repeat of the title on the pin itself.
Gina:     Yeah, let's talk about visuals a little bit. People don't read the fine print. So the descriptions that you are writing, if it's just on their page, their homepage, their faded, the pins of people they are following that are going through. What I do is I take a long, tall, skinny photo, I found that proportions of 800 pixels to about 1500 or even 1800 pixels works best, 600 to 1600 works best. And then I put words on it somewhere, if you do that, it takes up more vertical space on your pin page. If you ever look at your Pinterest home page you'll notice there's some tiny little pictures and then there's this great, big, long pictures. Those long pictures are going to catch your attention more quickly because they take up more space. So if you get the space for free, why not take as much space as you can get right?
Paul:     Yeah right, that's absolutely right!
Gina:     So you make long, tall, skinny pictures and put words that are really big on it and like stands out at you in a really great point so that people are drawing to those and i think maybe that's another reason why my pins do so well is because I always use clear fonts, that are easy to read, they're very recognizable and it's easy to look at, so you, it draws you in and makes you want to click on it. 
Paul:     And then you always put a reference to your site to the bottom. I noticed it's not the ShabbyCreekCottage.com, but just the words, is that because people can easily click through?
Gina:     Yes, it is part of that, the beauty that happens when you have rich pins installed in your website.
Paul:     Right, okay, yeah an easy click through which goes straight to the, ah now, the other thing that I noticed is that the same image is very quickly identified so I know that I've come to the right place, then I get more of the description about what it is and more pictures and images about that particular topic. This is great! 
Gina:     Yeah!
Paul:     Wow! And so that is the way to use Pinterest and you’re doing absolutely... are you doing 5 or 6 blogs per day then?
Gina:     No, I only post, right now, I've kind of taking it easy all summer. I only post 3 to 4 chums a week right now on my blog. And so I am not even posting every day right now.
Paul:     When you do pins, you're doing, you said 5 or so pins per day, do you do different images to the same blog?
Gina:     Oh no, no, no [22:46] content too, recycle your old content. That's your key because you've spent all this time building up content. I mean, I have 1500 post on my blog, so I have plenty of content that I don't have to duplicate, over and over and over again. Use all that content, you created it, so why not make the most of it. There are things that are on my blog that are 4 years old, and I'd still get traffic every day from it.
Paul:     Gina, if I was next to you I'd be coming up and hugging you! You've just reminded me that I have got an enormous amount of content on my website, a lot of podcast episodes, loads of really interesting guests and often when I look at my podcast stats a lot of people do go through archive shows listening to it, they're still relevant and interesting. And you've just reminded me why on earth am I not going and re-pinning these and re-promoting these old episodes because it's still valuable content. 
Gina:     Yup, re-pin it, I mean don't just pin it once and be done with it. Pin it! I have my 150 top posts, get pinned at least 3 times a month, every month, at least 3 times, probably closer 5 or 10 times a month, every month.
Paul:     So can we talk about analytics? I mean, one of the things that I have been doing over the last couple of months is, Twitter has a very good back analytical tool that enables me to see how many of my tweets are actually have impressions and how many have been retweeted, and give me the engagement stats and it's made me really think about some of the most popular tweets and then I actually retweeting those or reposting them. Do you have analytical tools for Pinterest?
Gina:     Yes! If you sign up for a business account which doesn't cost anything. When you if you verify your website, free in dash analytics which are awesome, it tells you which ones get the most pins and the re-pins and click through and Pinterest is just now rolling out something called promoted pins. Big businesses is the only ones really doing that right now, bloggers have the capability and I'm going to start in a couple of weeks doing that. I noticed Converse yesterday I was looking at something about fashion and I notice there was this Converse pin and it been re-pinned 14,000 times and it was a promoter pin, I was like, "Dude, I'm so doing that!" They are rolling out a paid version of pinning which would get you more visibility and I think I'm going to try it out. I don't know how it would work but I will definitely give it a try.
Paul:     So finally then they have succumbed to advertising and promoted pin. That was interesting coz I know it's taken awhile, I guess for them to roll that out.
Gina:     Well the first few years they made out their money from affiliates sites, coz every time you link to Amazon, or Target or any place that has their brilliant program. Pinterest was signed up for it, and if you click through from Pinterest, Pinterest got all the affiliate money and so they made tons and tons of money from affiliate money but now, they're growing it such a massive right they can't stay afloat just doing that. And I don't begrudge them, they bring me so much traffic, like "Dude, I don't mind paying back" like they have given me so much, I don't mind to invest in that because that works for me so why wouldn't I invest in something that works. 
Paul:     Yeah, absolutely. [26:45]. And I think the one thing that we have to bear in mind is that we're all doing this is that the example of Facebook and how the advocacy in the pursuit of now a public company making more money, they have messed around in the algorithms that shared with Facebook status updates. And so a lot of people have come on my show talking about Facebook having a little bit disgruntled, because they've built up this enormous following and Facebook has taken away the ability for them to actually send status updates to their own fans, their own followers. 
Gina:     I have 67,000 followers on Facebook and I am lucky if 1500 people see what I'm posting.
Paul:     Yeah, unless you pay of course, and then everyone will see it. 
Gina:     Right!
Paul:     They are holding you at ransom for your own, trying to get in front of your own audience.
Gina:     For your own traffic? Yeah, pretty much!
Paul:     We've actually....
Gina:     [27:42] Sign up from my Facebook page, sign up from my Facebook page! And they're like, "Yeah, no!" and we're done there!
Paul:     Yeah, Gino has been exploring on this show in fact, ways of getting emails from people that are following you in Facebook or Pinterest, and that's because they could email market them the same stuff and [28:05] them users email that you guarantee that that is your user and you could always communicate with them.
Gina:     See I'm a huge, huge proponent of subscribers.  I have an email mailing list, it's free when you sign up for the Mom Blog [28:19]. Until you said that, I had never thought to use Facebook to get people to sign up. I should totally do that!
Paul:     Yeah and actually is one of the past episodes that people listening could go and listen to this again is with Josh Owl and he talked through his experience of doing a giveaway, which I have actually  been doing as well, I have just started the give away a couple of hours ago and the intention there is you entice people to enter the giveaway and to enter it they have to give their email address so effectively their signing up for you and you're drawing them out of Facebook and into the giveaway and into email marketing. The attraction is that they get more entries to your give away if they actually promote you through their lucky URL, which is technically an affiliate link, they get more entries to their contest.
Gina:     Yeah! I've done that before straight on my blog but I feel like you had such massive fall out after the giveaway is over that it is not really worth the effort. Like I have seen as much as 90% of that traffic go away that you gained, from the giveaway, go away in 30 days, because, as soon as they know they didn't win, they just unsubscribe. 
Paul:     That's so interesting Gina, I'm going to have to get in touch with Josh, it has been 30 days or more since we spoke, so see how big his fall out is. He gained, maybe now, the end count 160 emails from 1 Tweet that he sent out, so... but yeah...
Gina:     Oh, wow! That being Twitter follower?
Paul:     Yeah, he had I think an email list of he's openly sent this 5,000 or so email list and subscribers and he sent one email or maybe two, one Tweet and grew to 160,000, once he took away all the spammy email. Initially it was 360,000 and then he managed to dive [30:25] kick it down to the confirmed the unconfirmed and yeah there is a dropout, a fall out I guess, just slowly, depending on the content you can follow-up with and if it is a relevant content then maybe more people stick with you.
Gina:     Maybe, that sounds incredible!
Paul:     Yeah, [30:47] well it's like everything, you know we got to be careful, we are talking to you, and I don't think anyone can copy what you've done, you've got a unique offering, you're absolutely killing it here with the traffic from Pinterest and I just would warn people that yes it's good to try this stuff, but we're not going to see at this stage, results like yourself Gina without, coz you have said from the start that you've been on Pinterest almost literally since it was first launched, you've clearly, the thing you've done is you've gained all these habits of doing all these stuff and learned all these different techniques and all we can do is try and emulate and hope that we can gain some very small portion of the success you've had with Pinterest.
Gina:     Honestly [31:31] the sympathy is don't be afraid to try new things. I have a friend who does incredibly, incredibly well on Google plus. She has over half a million followers, a self-kick Google plus! Like I think I have like 3,000 followers, or something like that. My blog is at least twice the size as hers but I don't have the same Google plus following, she does really, really well so she rocks Google plus! If your friend is doing awesome on Twitter, I'm also horrible at Twitter so I don't tweet much, so you have to figure out what you have and what your audience attaches itself too. I know that my Facebook page does okay, I guess it does really well compared to some smaller ones but for once by size it's not so great. I still maintain that community but my Instagram and my Pinterest are really the things that do the very, very best so I stick with those because you have to figure out what works and you have to figure out how to make it work better. 
Paul:     And this is the wonderful thing about this podcast because if anyone was looking to your business, Gina, from the outside, without hearing this, without actually speaking to you, I would look like so, for example, I'd look at your Pinterest and I'd look at your Facebook and make the assumption that your Facebook's better for you because you have more followers and you have less followers in Pinterest as compared to Facebook but that would be a completely and utterly wrong assumption and that would be way off and that's the thing that we have to be very careful of is, and I know I fell into this trap and I'm sure many of the apps to try bless [33:10] thing to have done the same thing, where they go off, they reset online, and someone is doing really well in their field, they try to emulate them by copying what they can see and ultimately, they make in the mistake, as I've made the mistake there of thinking of one thing of actually in fact it's the other.
Gina:     I think, whatever kind of content it is that you are putting out in the world, whether it's a podcast or a blogpost, a product in a shop, content is [33:44] making the best content you possibly can and figure out how to spread it around. But you have to have the content or you have nothing to promote so figure out your content first. If you're just starting out focus on your content, I still make, content is my focus, I think about what I'm going to write about, how I'm going to write it. I worry about the content and I figure out how to make it work for my social media, so I write with Pinterest in mind. When I'm writing a post, I write how to post because I know it would do well on Pinterest. You have to figure out how to create content for your audience that works the best, does that make sense?
Paul:     That makes an enormous sense and I've actually highlight that how to posts because I think that's something we could all learn from. Well Gina you have helped me create some of the amazing content because this is a fantastic episode, it has differed slightly from the usual and we've just got so many gems and gold nuggets of information here. I can't thank you enough Gina. How best can my audience helps [34:56] to try connect with you? 
Gina:     You can find me on Instagram, it's really easy way, Instagram, you can search for Shabby Creek or you can search for me by my name Gina Luker and find me on there, I am most active on there. You can also find me on my blog, TheShabbyCreekCottage.com, my email address is in the sidebar which is also easy to remember it's gina@theshabbycreekcottage.com, so that's the easiest ways to connect with me either through Instagram, commenting on my blog or drop me an email.
Paul:     And just before we draw it to an end Gina, Pinterest have recently brought out the ability to message each other, how’s that working for you?  And are you getting a lot of interesting connections on Pinterest through the messaging or is it too spammy.
Gina:     I don't really use it but I have found people, I have a group board that I own and I get [35:58] other people asking me through the messenger system if they can, if they can be a member on my board so I think the person has to follow you when you have to follow the [36:10] but if that's the case, then you can ask privately and not have to beg on somebody's pin in public, leave a comment on their pin "Can I be in your group board please?" I think the private messaging thing is good for that, I haven't really used that for anything else coz I really go directly to Pinterest coz I do everything through ViralTag, so I go to Pinterest for specific inspiration. I was up at 2 o'clock this morning and was trying to figure out how to do something because I couldn't sleep and I'm trying to Pinterest at 2 o'clock in the morning, that's probably for somebody been on Pinterest and a couple of weeks, unless I'm searching for something I don't really go on there and I use Pinterest more than Google these days.
Paul:     Wow, you are the avid entrepreneur and the fact that you can't sleep because your mind is buzzing with things you want to do then it just shows what a passion you have for your subject and the wonderful advice that you have openly shared. I know this is over running and I got just pick up for one final thing and the pre-chat, you did mention that you'd like to talk about money and I wondered if I can pick you up to see what it was you wanted to share perhaps [37:31] the tribe. 
Gina:     Okay, so a friend and I we had this conversation and it has been a couple of years ago now, well it’s been just over a year because we were back in a crossroads and we couldn't decide what was the path to take because when you barely been blogging for a year or two or maybe even three, you kind of get, feel like you get stuck in this pigeon hole and you don't know which direction to go and we were both struggling and so we talked about you can either blog for money, to make money, but you can blog so that you're gearing so that you'll get more traffic from ad network from sponsorship so you can blog for cash, or you can blog for community, you can blog to build up a following, a loyal, community of people who invest and trust in what you say. I flat out say, I'm blogging for cash, I'm blogging to make the money, I don't need notoriety, I don't want fame, I just want to provide a good income for my family so I'm going to take this route and I'm going to do what I need to do to make money. She said, coz she is a Christian Homeschool blogger, she said "I'm going to blog for community!" And we were like "Okay, great! This is awesome we both have our path!" And she drop calver [39:07] ad network, she took all the ads off her blog and she kept blogging, luckily her husband is an attorney and a CPA, he provided a good income, of course she has an edgy shop which provides income for her. My blog was my money maker and I've done incredibly well. I make over 6 figures a year on my blog. She kind of went along and she doesn't have nearly the following that I do, I think she gets around 100,000 hits a month. But within the last, probably 3 months, she got a 2-book deal and got a really good 2-book deal and has been contacted today a reality show. And even though she focused on creating content for her community, and not creating content for traffic's sake, she just wanted to solidify the community that she had and grow it very slowly and I wanted to grow mine as quickly as I could. We took two different paths but we both became very successful on that path, so you have to decide if you're going to create content for community or create content to make money. And when she figured that out, it all help you in so many decisions, it is unreal, because now I think is this actually going to make me money and I know that sounds like a harsh thing to say but before I go into any part of [40:53-54] unless I'm doing it because I want to do it. I almost never do anything for free, I don't work for friends for free, I don't do design work for free, I don't do anything for free because if I want to spend my time for free, I'm going to spend my time with my kids.
Paul:     That is so thought provoking, almost feels like it warrants another episode just talking about that. I love the way you've encapsulated that whole journey, that story and I know it resonates massively with all of us because a lot of us are into giving back, and doing stuff for free and we're kind of confused and you just helped identify, that take either of those two paths follow it then at least you know where you stand and what I've learned Gina is that sometimes, you either follow your passion like your friend did and do it for the love of it and eventually the money will come or you master some skill and then by that mastery you find your passion and you still have the money at the end of the day. So a wonderful, kind of thought provoking way to end the show.
Gina:    Even though I'm very business minded, I'm still incredibly passionate with what I do, so there is no right or wrong answer in that question you just have to decide which is right for you and in the end it will just help you all the way around to make decisions in your business and in your work path [42:39], in your family and it will help you decide which sacrifices are worth it and which are not.
Paul:     Look Gina, I'm going to be playing this time and time again, as such a great episode, I honestly could talk to you for ages, for I know you've got a business to run, and so thank you for joining us!
Gina:     Thank you for having me!
Paul:     And contributing your content, you're welcome back anytime Gina!
Gina:     Thank you!